TOP DEAD CENTER
Links to key info are here. Clicking them will change the info appearing below the table, or take you to the EarthRider website.
UPCOMING RIDES

NONE! VCARS is NO MORE!
Contact the shop to find out about their
monthly rides now put on in-house.



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for more rides, tours, & classes
READ B-4 U RIDE

WHAT TO BRING ON A RIDE

SETTING UP YOUR BIKE

ADVENTURE DAY RIDE FUNDAMENTALS
PART 1. . . . . . . . . . .PART 2

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DS SkilzDrill 03 - Jan '08 - Logistics

[Previous post: DSS 03 Roster]

DUAL SPORT SKILZDRILL 03:
LOGISTICS

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dualsport Skills Practice, short day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet Saturday, 19 January, 7:30 AM
Where . . . . . Meet @ BMW Motorcycles of Ventura County
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Laine_MacTague


Notice we are meeting at the shop, not in Santa Paula. About 50 miles of fuel will do for the morning. Make sure you are fueled up and at the shop by meeting time.

We need permits for our vehicles for the potion of the National Forest we will be visiting; I will secure them for us. To do that, I need you to send me your address and the year, make, model, colour, and license of the motorcycle you will be riding on this ride. Get this info to me as soon as you can. If I don’t have that info, I can’t secure you a permit, and if I don’t secure you a permit, you get to sit on the sidewalk and clap as the rest of us go by.

If you are on the DSS 03 Roster, that means I have all your permit info squared away, and you are good to go!

DS Two-up 01 - Dec '07 - Logistics

DS TWO-UP 01: CALIENTE HOT SPRINGS
LOGISTICS

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dualsport Ride, short day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Saturday, 15 December, 7:30 AM
Where . . . . . . .Meet @ BMW Motorcycles of Ventura County
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague


Be sure to check the DST 01 Roster, to make sure I have you on the ride. If you are on the roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.
Show up on time at the shop with a minimum 100 miles worth of fuel; we will be taking the scenic route to Santa Barbara. Here’s a picture of some stations close to the shop:
Remember to show up at the shop at 7:30; not the gas station.
If you are in Santa Barbara, the alternate meeting site is So Cool’s house. Contact me for directions.
If you are bringing a passenger, please email me their name.

DS Ride 10 - Dec '07 - Logistics

DS RIDE 10: LOCKWOOD LOOP B – TAKE TWO

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dualsport Ride, full day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet Sunday, 02 December, 6:30 AM
Where . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Motorcycles of Ventura County
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


LOGISTICS


If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DSR 10 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with 60 miles worth of fuel. Here’s a picture of some stations close to the shop:


Remember to show up at the shop at 6:30; not the gas station.

We will be heading north and east from the BMWVC. If you are joining us from the L. A. area and don’t want to do the morning backtrack, contact me about an alternate meeting site.

People tell me I’m getting too soft, but I intend an actual, real-live, full-blown, at-a-restaurant Lunch Stop on this ride. In order to have time for this, we will have to use our time efficiently. That may mean going around a difficult section, or going through with no or very brief stops. I will discuss this more in the Orientation, which will follow soon.

So Cool navigates one of the ride's toughest challenges. DSR 09 research ride.

DS Ride 09 - Nov '07 - Logistics

POLAR DUST? PULSAR DOT? DUALSPORT!
LOCKWOOD LOOP B

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dualsport Ride, full day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet Sunday, 4th November, 6:15 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague@verizon.net



DS RIDE 09: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DSR 09 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with 60 miles worth of fuel. Here’s a picture of some stations close to the shop:


Daylight Saving Time ends at 2 am, 04 November. Clocks fall back from 1:59 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. That means that we gain an hour of sleep. Be on time!

We will be heading north and east from the shop. If you are joining us from the L. A. area and don’t want to do the morning backtrack, contact me about an alternate meeting site.

People tell me I’m getting too soft, but I intend an actual, real-live, full-blown, at-a-restaurant Lunch Stop on this ride. In order to have time for this, we will have to use our time efficiently. That may mean going around a difficult section, or going through with no or very brief stops. I will discuss this more in the Orientation, which will follow soon.

So Cool navigates one of the ride's toughest challenges. DSR 09 research ride.

DS Skilz-drill 02 - Sep '07 - Logistics

DUAL SPORT SKILZ DRILZ:
REAR-STEERING II + WHEELIES

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dualsport Skills Practice, short day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 2 September, 7:15 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ojai Coffee Roasting Company
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Laine_MacTague@verizon.net



DS SKILZ DRILL 02: LOGISTICS

We are going to Nordhoff Ridge. What follows is the permit process. We are all required by NFS to secure individual permits for our vehicles. There is no fee for the permit. I will outline the process for you below. Get the permit process started soon; the Service allows 20 vehicles a day into the area where we will be going. We are in competition with other Forest users for permits – first call first serve.

Call the National Forest Service Ojai Ranger Station @ (805) 646-4348. The office opens at 8 AM. When the machine answers press 0 for an operator. Inform the operator that you are with the BMW group and would like to request a vehicle permit for Nordhoff Ridge for the 15th of April*. Some of the operators may not have heard of us: The main goal in identifying yourself with the group is to get all our permits in one envelope for pickup. It may be helpful to give my name.

The operator should ask for the following information:
Your Name, Phone, Address, CDL;
Vehicle make, model, color, license #
HOWEVER; they may only take your name and phone #, and ask you to call and confirm 3-4 days before the ride.

The info you supply, along with the combination to a NFS locked gate, will be put on a permit slip, which we will pick up during the morning slab ride.

Once you have made the initial arrangements with NFS, let me know by phone or email (805.421.8773 / Laine_MacTague@verizon.net): I want to keep tabs on our numbers, and to confirm everyone with NFS myself when the date gets closer.

Remember to be nice to the NFS folks: We represent a specific, growing user group that they have had very little contact with up to now. We have specific desires which could be better met by the Service, and if they think well of us, we will have an edge when it comes time to ask for what we want from NFS.

DS Overnight 01 - May '07 - Logistics

DUAL SPORT OVERNIGHT RIDE:
ROCK FRONT LOOP

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dualsport Overnight, 1.5 days
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Saturday, 12 May, 2:00 PM
Return late Sunday, 13 May
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Motorcycles of VC
Contact . . .Laine_MacTague@verizon.net

DS OVERNIGHT 01: LOGISTICS

Glad you could join us!

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Overnight 01 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with at least 50 miles worth of fuel. Here are some stations close to the shop:


Remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 2:00 PM – not at the gas station.

If you are joining us from Ventura or anywhere up-coast of Ventura, contact me about an alternate meeting site.

The Plan ["The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, / Gang aft agley” – Robert Burns] is to return via Santa Barbara, late in the afternoon on Sunday. You will be in a position to return earlier if you need to.

The Orientation text (to follow soon) will go over our planned schedule in more detail, and begin a gear list discussion that I expect will continue for the rest of the Series…

DS Skilz-drill 01 - April '07 - Logistics

DUAL SPORT SKILZ DRILZ:
TO STEER WITH THE REAR

What . . . . . . . . Dualsport Skills Practice, short day
When . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 15 April, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . Meet @ Ojai Coffee Roasting Company
Contact . . . . . . . . . .Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


DS Skilzdrill 01: LOGISTICS

We are going to Nordhoff Ridge. We are all required by NFS to secure individual permits for our vehicles. There is no fee for the permit. I will outline the process for you below. Get the permit process started soon; the Service allows 20 vehicles a day into the area where we will be going. We are in competition with other Forest users for permits – first call first serve.

Call the National Forest Service Ojai Ranger Station @ (805) 646-4348. The office opens at 8 AM. When the machine answers press 0 for an operator. Inform the operator that you are with the BMW group and would like to request a vehicle permit for Nordhoff Ridge for the 15th of April*. Some of the operators may not have heard of us: The main goal in identifying yourself with the group is to get all our permits in one envelope for pickup. It may be helpful to give my name.

The operator should ask for the following information:
Your Name, Phone, Address, CDL;
Vehicle make, model, color, license #
HOWEVER; they may only take your name and phone #, and ask you to call and confirm 3-4 days before the ride.

The info you supply, along with the combination to a NFS locked gate, will be put on a permit slip, which we will pick up during the morning slab ride.

Once you have made the initial arrangements with NFS, let me know by phone or email (Laine_MacTague@verizon.net): I want to keep tabs on our numbers, and to confirm everyone with NFS myself when the date gets closer.

Remember to be nice to the NFS folks: We represent a specific, growing user group that they have had very little contact with up to now. We have specific desires which could be better met by the Service, and if they think well of us, we will have an edge when it comes time to ask for what we want from NFS.

Don't let this happen to YOU! Learn to Turn, or you'll end up like this kook.
[Don "So Cool" Gordon flailing like a goober, DSR 08]

DS Ride 08 - April '07 - Logistics

DR. PLUTO AS – DUALSPORT:
WEST ANGELES LOOP A REVERSED

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dualsport Ride, full day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 01 April, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


DS RIDE 08: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 08 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog (http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/), or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider. We are currently maxed out at 15 riders.

Show up on time at the shop with 60 miles worth of fuel, and remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 7:00 – not at the gas station.

We will be heading north and east from the shop. If you are joining us from the L. A. area and don’t want to do the morning backtrack, contact me about an alternate meeting site. It will not be the same as last month.

Orientation text to follow soon…

Meet at the shop, you might have this craziness to look forward to.
Roman Cooper, DSR 03

DS Ride 07 - Mar '07 - Logistics

MAKING “TALUS DROP” OUTA DUALSPORT:
WEST ANGELES LOOP A

What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dualsport Ride, full day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 04 March, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


DS RIDE 07: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 07 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with 65 miles worth of fuel. Here’s a picture of some stations close to the shop:



Remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 7:00 – not at the gas station.

We will be heading north and east from the shop. If you are joining us from the L. A. area and don’t want to do the morning backtrack, contact me about an alternate meeting site.


Andy Trabucco showing proper form (and Herculean strength) picking up his GSA, DSR 06.

DS Ride 06 - Feb '07 - Logistics

PUTTING “SPOR” INTO DUALSPORT:
BALLINGER LOOP A


What . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dualsport Ride, full day
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 04 February, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Laine_MacTague@verizon.net
More Info . . . http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/



DS RIDE 06: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 06 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with 45 miles worth of fuel. Remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 7:00 – not at the gas station.

If you are joining us from Ventura or anywhere up-coast of Ventura, contact me about an alternate meeting site.

Orientation text to follow soon…





Got into a rut, doing research for this ride... >>>

DS Ride 05 - Jan '07 - Logistics

PUTTING “ALSP” INTO DUALSPORT:
SANTA LUCIA LOOP A


What . . . . . . . .Dualsport Ride, full day, novice / intermediate
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 14 January, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Laine_MacTague@verizon.net



DS RIDE 05: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 05 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog, or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet; contact me if you are interested in joining the ride. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

Show up on time at the shop with 150 miles worth of fuel. Here’s a picture of some stations close to the shop:


Remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 7:00 – not at the gas station.

Once again, Don Gordon has generously offered to host us at his home—which is well into the morning slab ride—for a brief coffee and doughnut warm-up stop. Don’t tell the guys at the shop though! If they find out, they might not let us use the CERTIFIED BMW Coffee machine in the shop lounge area when we meet that morning…

DS Ride 04 - Dec. '06 - Logistics

PUTTING “DUAL” INTO DUALSPORT:
EAST ANGELES FOREST LOOP

What . . . . . . . . Dualsport Ride, full day, novice / intermediate
When . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Meet Sunday, 17 December, 7:00 AM
Where . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. Laine_MacTague@verizon.net
805.421.8773
More info . . .
http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/


DS RIDE 04: LOGISTICS

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 04 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog (http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/), or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

We are all required by NFS to secure individual permits for our vehicles. There is no fee for the permit. I will outline the process for you below. Begin the process as soon as you can; my experience with the Angeles permit process took notably longer than the permit process for access in the Los Padres on DSR 01.

To apply, print out a copy of PermitApp-Rincon.doc (also included in the email this document came to you in). Fill out the permit according to the instructions, and mail or fax it in. A few notes on that:

Remember to check “For off-highway only”, and fill in your CDL just below.
Number of days is 1, unless you plan on going up there yourself.
Exit and entry days are both December 17th.
For entry and exit points, put “Hwy 39 / 2” on both lines.
Don’t forget to include your license plate under “vehicle description”.
We will NOT need Adventure passes.
Faxing will be quicker than mailing.

Once you have made the initial arrangements with NFS, let me know by phone or email (805.421.8773 / Laine_MacTague@verizon.net): I want to keep tabs on our numbers, and to confirm everyone myself when the date gets closer.

Remember to be nice to the NFS folks: We represent a specific, growing user group that they have had very little contact with up to now. We have specific desires which could be better met by the Service, and it will be nice when it comes time to ask for what we want from NFS if they already think well of us.

Orientation text to follow soon…


Don Gordon leading me (sort of) on a research ride
for a (more challenging) future VCDSRS debacle.


DS Ride 03 - Nov. '06 - Logistics

PUTTING “DUAL” INTO DUAL SPORT:
LOCKWOOD LOOP A


What. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Dualsport Ride, full day
When. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet Sunday, 5 November, 7:00 AM
Where. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Price. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .You might need a $5 bill…
Contact............................Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


DS RIDE 03: LOGISTICS


We’re off! Sorry about missing a month:

If I have emailed you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 03 Roster. If you are reading this on the blog (http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/), or some one else sent it to you, you are not on the ride yet! Contact me if you are interested. If you are on my roster, and decide you can’t make it, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.


THE GOOD NEWS

This is our first loop ride! I don’t know about you, but loops always feel just a little more adventuresome to me than out-and-back rides. The really good news is that the Day Fire did not eliminate the entire ride. Our route basically circles the fire (in a clockwise direction, if you are buried near the centre of the earth and the Sun is backlighting our route…)

Furthermore, Showing up on time at the shop will not take Herculean effort: A few riders (okay; it was mostly me) whined too loudly about our last (6:30 am) start, so we will be back at 7:00 am this time.


THE BAD NEWS

The Day Fire did eliminate one long exciting beautiful stretch of forested unpaved road. The results: This loop may seem a little contrived, and you will have to listen to me wax poetic about the great section of trail you’re going to miss out on.

To be honest, there may be more bad news: It may come to pass that the imminent ratification of a legal document – designed to allow use of many National Forest trails in the Day Fire area to resume – will not be signed in time for the ride as it is expected to be. If this happens (or rather, fails to happen), I will attempt to pull some totally other ride out of my hat. Who knows; it could be even better!


THE MITIGATIVE NEWS

There may well be some mitigative news soon and if there is, it will involve access to a trail along our current route that is even more exciting beautiful and forested than the one we are definitely not riding on. This would require access to private land, which I am working on. More on that if something more arises…


THE UGLY NEWS

My nifty ’01 Dakar is no more. As of this point, I have yet to lock in a functional vehicle. I may have to ride the clay-wheeled skateboard, unless one of you wants a passenger (not really – we’re still in the no passenger phase). Keep your eyes peeled for text on my gnarly wreck on the ride series blog (http://ventura-county-dualsport.blogspot.com/).

Orientation text to follow soon…
Laine MacTague

DS Ride 02 - Sept. '06 - Logistics

PUTTING “DUAL” INTO DUALSPORT:
A PROLOGUE


What……......……………Dualsport Ride, full day
When…Meet Sunday, 10 September, 6:30 AM
Where….Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact……Laine_MacTague@verizon.net



DS RIDE 02: LOGISTICS

Awesome that you’re coming along! This one is a little different from the August ride:

THE GOOD NEWS

No permit necessary! If I have sent you this, it means you’re on the DS Ride 02 Roster. All you have to do is show up on time at the shop with 200 miles worth of fuel (that’s a full tank, for you F riders). We will not be stopping for fuel until we are back on pavement on our way home. Here’s a picture of where the closest stations are to the shop:


If at some point before the 10th you decide you can’t make the ride, please let me know ASAP so I can give your space to another rider.

THE BAD NEWS

Showing up on time at the shop might take Herculean effort: The August group unanimously approved the early start for that ride, which is why this one meets even earlier, at 6:30 am. There are great reasons for this:
1) It is hotter where we are going, and the more cool riding weather we can take advantage of, the better.
2) Although getting up that early can be trying, the slabs are bliss! We had little traffic during our morning ride last time, and I think we would all appreciate even less traffic for our upcoming (and longer) morning slab ride. Which brings me to reason 3…
3) This will be a pretty long ride. Both the on- and off-pavement sections are longer. An early start will afford us the opportunity to be heading homeward at a reasonable hour.
Remember re filling up; show up at the shop at 6:30 – not at the gas station!

THE MITIGATIVE NEWS

Maybe getting up so early won’t be that bad: Don “This-is-the-most-fun-I’ve-had-on-a-motorcycle-in-20-years” Gordon has generously and perhaps foolishly offered to host us at his home—which is well into the morning slab ride—for a brief coffee and doughnut warm-up stop. If you’re like me, those VTA BMW doughnuts and coffee have worn off after the first 45 miles…

THERE IS NO UGLY NEWS

Orientation text to follow soon…
Laine MacTague

DS Ride 01 - August '06 - Logistics

PUTTING “DUAL” INTO DUALSPORT:
A PRELUDE


What...........Dualsport Ride, ½ - ¾ day long
When........Meet Sunday, August 6, 7:00 AM
Where....Meet @ BMW Ventura parking lot
Contact.....Laine_MacTague@verizon.net


DS RIDE 01: LOGISTICS

We are all required by NFS to secure individual permits for our vehicles. There is no fee for the permit. I will outline the process for you below. There is a rush on this; the Service allows 20 vehicles a day into the area where we will be going. We are in competition with other Forest users for permits – first call first serve.

Call the National Forest Service Ojai Ranger Station @ (805) 646-4348. When the machine answers press 0 for an operator. [The office opens at 8 AM.]
Inform the operator that you are with the BMW group and would like to request a vehicle permit for Nordhoff Ridge for the 6th of August*. Some of the operators may not have heard of us: The main goal in identifying yourself with the group is to get all our permits in one envelope for pickup. It may be helpful to give my name.

The operator should ask for the following information:
Your Name, Phone, Address, CDL;
Vehicle make, model, color, license #
They may only take your name and phone #, and ask you to call and confirm 3-4 days before the ride.

The info you supply, along with the combination to a NFS locked gate, will be put on a permit slip, which we will pick up during the morning slab ride.

Once you have made the initial arrangements with NFS, let me know by phone or email: I want to keep tabs on our numbers, and to confirm everyone myself when the date gets closer.

Remember to be nice to the NFS folks: We represent a specific, growing user group that they have had very little contact with up to now. We have specific desires which could be better met by the Service, and if they think well of us, we will have an edge when it comes time to ask for what we want from NFS.

Hope to hear from you soon!

Laine MacTague


* You may secure the permit for up to three consecutive days: So if you have Monday & / or Tuesday off, and think you might like to go up there again, tell them to include those days on your permit. For the ride, the 6th is all we need.

Movie of the Moment


Strong intermediate riders on R4 terrain. BMW R1200GS, Suzuki V-Strom, BMW X-Challenge. ['10 ADR 02/13 - R4]

picture of the week (or vaguely similar time period. Click to enlarge.)

"Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul." ['10 ADR 04/10 - R3]

Community (Click to enlarge. [Er, to enlarge our community, come on a ride.])

Huzzah! Another best-laid plan "gang agley" yet survived all the same.
['10 ADR 03/13 - R2 (became, oh, R8 due to mud... and stubbornness!)]